Posts by Doug Mason

16

The canonised Old Testament is no different from the Apocrypha except with more scary fables and mythology

by fukitol in

the apocryphal books are accepted by catholics in their douay version as inspired of god, but rejected by the rest of christianity?.

why?.

when you examine the reasons for and against acceptance of the apocrypha as divinely inspired or not, it dawns on you that the traditionally accepted 39 books of the hebrew scriptures are nothing but the same sort of stuff as the more recent apocryphal books are, with the only difference being that the 39 much older ot books contain a lot more scary stories, fables and mythology invented by the ancient jewish priesthood to frighten their followers into fear and obedience and continued giving of meat sacrifices for the priests to eat.. ultimately, the ot can be summarised as nothing but a mixture of relatively accurate historical jewish war histories and genealogies, such as the aprocrypha is, mingled with scary stories made up by the ancient jewish priests and scribes..

Doug Mason

Connie,

Hippo is in Algeria, North Africa. A Synod was held at that time, not a Council. And the decision made in North Africa corresponds with the canon later accepted by the Church of Rome. I presume but do not know if Rome was invited to Hippo.

The power base of early Christianity lay in North Africa - Carthage and Alexandria in particular, with the Eastern Church having great influence (as per the Council of Nicea, where Rome was an observer only).

The 4th and 5th centuries saw the bloodiest conflicts between Christians, based solely on doctrinal differences (think of the current civil war among Muslim sects, but many times worse). These conflicts weakened the Christian Church's hold in North Africa, enabling the Muslims to take over, and Christianity moved northwards to Europe, and thus Christianity became a European religion, with its Middle Eastern origins taken over by European cultures.

Doug

16

The canonised Old Testament is no different from the Apocrypha except with more scary fables and mythology

by fukitol in

the apocryphal books are accepted by catholics in their douay version as inspired of god, but rejected by the rest of christianity?.

why?.

when you examine the reasons for and against acceptance of the apocrypha as divinely inspired or not, it dawns on you that the traditionally accepted 39 books of the hebrew scriptures are nothing but the same sort of stuff as the more recent apocryphal books are, with the only difference being that the 39 much older ot books contain a lot more scary stories, fables and mythology invented by the ancient jewish priesthood to frighten their followers into fear and obedience and continued giving of meat sacrifices for the priests to eat.. ultimately, the ot can be summarised as nothing but a mixture of relatively accurate historical jewish war histories and genealogies, such as the aprocrypha is, mingled with scary stories made up by the ancient jewish priests and scribes..

Doug Mason

opusdei,

Those early Christians were focused on the person, now known as Jesus Christ. The initial Christians were not interested in writing - even their Leader Jesus left nothing in writing. The earliest written material comes from 49 CE by the Apostle Paul - who never witnessed Jesus. Indeed, none of the writers either saw or heard Jesus.

Paul's writings were local instructions covering specific topics, never intended to be read as Scripture. This attitude gradually changed as we see in the letters falsely attributed to Peter, written about 150 CE.

Paul was focused completely on local issues because he fully expected Jesus to return during his own lifetime. Paul had no vision for a long future( which is one reason we know he did not write those letters that discuss organisational matters, such as the appointment of elders.)

When they started to document their thoughts, these writers searched the Hebrew texts with the sole intent of supporting their predetermined ideas about a Person - Jesus Christ. So they selectively quoted texts that they could twist to mean that the Hebrew texts applied to Jesus. So they did not quote texts because they considered them to be "inspired".

The writers of the NT never claim that their writings were "inspired". The sole text brought up by Fundamentalists uses a unique word "theopneustos" - literally meaning "God-breathed", but used only once (by someone who pretended to be Paul - so much for his/her inspiration).

A small but very interesting book, "A High View of Scripture?" by Allert puts a lot of this into perspective.

Investigate "Higher Criticism".

Doug

16

The canonised Old Testament is no different from the Apocrypha except with more scary fables and mythology

by fukitol in

the apocryphal books are accepted by catholics in their douay version as inspired of god, but rejected by the rest of christianity?.

why?.

when you examine the reasons for and against acceptance of the apocrypha as divinely inspired or not, it dawns on you that the traditionally accepted 39 books of the hebrew scriptures are nothing but the same sort of stuff as the more recent apocryphal books are, with the only difference being that the 39 much older ot books contain a lot more scary stories, fables and mythology invented by the ancient jewish priesthood to frighten their followers into fear and obedience and continued giving of meat sacrifices for the priests to eat.. ultimately, the ot can be summarised as nothing but a mixture of relatively accurate historical jewish war histories and genealogies, such as the aprocrypha is, mingled with scary stories made up by the ancient jewish priests and scribes..

Doug Mason

For a comprehensive and detailed listing of "quotations, allusions and parallels to the New Testament", see "Ancient Texts for New Testament Studies: A Guide to the Background Literature", pages 342 - 409, by Craig A. Evans (Baker Academic, 2005).

The same book provides a comprehensive summary of "The Old Testament Apocrypha" (pages 9-25) and also of "The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha" (pages 26-75).

Doug

16

The canonised Old Testament is no different from the Apocrypha except with more scary fables and mythology

by fukitol in

the apocryphal books are accepted by catholics in their douay version as inspired of god, but rejected by the rest of christianity?.

why?.

when you examine the reasons for and against acceptance of the apocrypha as divinely inspired or not, it dawns on you that the traditionally accepted 39 books of the hebrew scriptures are nothing but the same sort of stuff as the more recent apocryphal books are, with the only difference being that the 39 much older ot books contain a lot more scary stories, fables and mythology invented by the ancient jewish priesthood to frighten their followers into fear and obedience and continued giving of meat sacrifices for the priests to eat.. ultimately, the ot can be summarised as nothing but a mixture of relatively accurate historical jewish war histories and genealogies, such as the aprocrypha is, mingled with scary stories made up by the ancient jewish priests and scribes..

Doug Mason

Books on my bookshelf that I could easily and quickly lay my hands on:

"The Canon Debate", McDonald and Sanders (Hendrickson Publishers, 2002)

"The Biblical Canon", McDonald (Baker Academic, 2007)

"The Formation of the Hebrew Bible: A New Reconstruction", Carr (Oxford University Press, 2011)

"Scribal Culture and the Making of the Hebrew Bible", Karel Van Der Toorn (Harvard University Press, 2007)

"The New Testament Canon: Its Making and Meaning", Gamble (Fortress Press, 1985; Wipf and Stock, 2002)

Do not expect uniform agreement among scholars, but research them and decide on a model that suits your understanding of the externals - culture, religious politics, etc.

Each of these books lists any number of their sources.

Doug

16

The canonised Old Testament is no different from the Apocrypha except with more scary fables and mythology

by fukitol in

the apocryphal books are accepted by catholics in their douay version as inspired of god, but rejected by the rest of christianity?.

why?.

when you examine the reasons for and against acceptance of the apocrypha as divinely inspired or not, it dawns on you that the traditionally accepted 39 books of the hebrew scriptures are nothing but the same sort of stuff as the more recent apocryphal books are, with the only difference being that the 39 much older ot books contain a lot more scary stories, fables and mythology invented by the ancient jewish priesthood to frighten their followers into fear and obedience and continued giving of meat sacrifices for the priests to eat.. ultimately, the ot can be summarised as nothing but a mixture of relatively accurate historical jewish war histories and genealogies, such as the aprocrypha is, mingled with scary stories made up by the ancient jewish priests and scribes..

Doug Mason

There is a simple explanation for the reason why NT writers cited or alluded to writings that are today considered "apocryphal" -- there was no canon of the Hebrew scriptures at the time.

The Jews kept their writings on a number of scrolls. Quite early in their experience, the Christians adopted the codex format, which naturally led to the idea of a collection of writings in a single volume. The idea of a canon was thus a Christian process, not Jewish. For some time, scholars said that the canon was discussed by the Jews in 90 CE at a council in Jamnia, but this has now been positively discounted. They most likely went through the process over several centuries, as did the Christians. For the latter, they were apparently initially motivated by the actions of Marcion, who produced a limited list of scriptures (he said that the god of the OT was not the Christian's god).

The axiom states that "Scripture does not need a Canon but a Canon needs Scripture". The NT writers cited Scripture but that does not mean they had a canon of Scriptures. And when they cited their sources they were not providing an exegesis; they were simply using - and misusing - Hebrew texts to support their predetermined views about Yeshua (Jesus the Anointed/Christ).

Doug

16

The canonised Old Testament is no different from the Apocrypha except with more scary fables and mythology

by fukitol in

the apocryphal books are accepted by catholics in their douay version as inspired of god, but rejected by the rest of christianity?.

why?.

when you examine the reasons for and against acceptance of the apocrypha as divinely inspired or not, it dawns on you that the traditionally accepted 39 books of the hebrew scriptures are nothing but the same sort of stuff as the more recent apocryphal books are, with the only difference being that the 39 much older ot books contain a lot more scary stories, fables and mythology invented by the ancient jewish priesthood to frighten their followers into fear and obedience and continued giving of meat sacrifices for the priests to eat.. ultimately, the ot can be summarised as nothing but a mixture of relatively accurate historical jewish war histories and genealogies, such as the aprocrypha is, mingled with scary stories made up by the ancient jewish priests and scribes..

Doug Mason

Information on the NT use of Hebrew apocryphal writings

http://www.jwstudies.com/God-breathed_Scriptures.pdf (pages 21-26)

http://www.jwstudies.com/Why_Does_WTS_Accept_Christendoms_Scriptures.pdf (page 46)

http://www.jwstudies.com/We_can_be_sure.pdf (page 8, 59, 60)

Thus these books were not rejected by the rest of Christianity. Look at the wide range of canons. Look at the differences between the LXX, MT, Symmachus, Theodotian, etc. or the arguments that rage about the differences between the Textus Receptus and Wetscott/Hort.

Or consider the fact that no one is or will ever be able to know what any writer originally wrote.

Or consider the fact that throughout the ages, people accidentally and deliberately amended the text to suit their current beliefs (as the WTS has done).

Doug

12

Buddhists and Jehovah's Witnesses

by tornapart in

recently i have just started looking into what buddhism is all about.

i rather like the idea of a personal spirituality.

of trying to be a better person and an acceptance of the reality of life and trying to find an inner peace and contentment.. anyway, i came across this today.

Doug Mason

Buddhism is Australia's second-largest religion after Christianity, with 500,000 adherents.

Doug

16

The canonised Old Testament is no different from the Apocrypha except with more scary fables and mythology

by fukitol in

the apocryphal books are accepted by catholics in their douay version as inspired of god, but rejected by the rest of christianity?.

why?.

when you examine the reasons for and against acceptance of the apocrypha as divinely inspired or not, it dawns on you that the traditionally accepted 39 books of the hebrew scriptures are nothing but the same sort of stuff as the more recent apocryphal books are, with the only difference being that the 39 much older ot books contain a lot more scary stories, fables and mythology invented by the ancient jewish priesthood to frighten their followers into fear and obedience and continued giving of meat sacrifices for the priests to eat.. ultimately, the ot can be summarised as nothing but a mixture of relatively accurate historical jewish war histories and genealogies, such as the aprocrypha is, mingled with scary stories made up by the ancient jewish priests and scribes..

Doug Mason

The "rest of Christianity" does not have an agreed canon.

Only the Catholic Church has voted on the Canon, which happened at the Council of Trent (15th century or thereabouts).

Early Christian codices included writings such as "Barnabas" and "The Shepherd of Hermas" as authoritative.

If the OT apocrypha are unacceptable, why did the NT writers quote them so heavily, such 1 Enoch and Sirach?

There is a number of very good scholarly books on canonization, and I can recommend some if you are interested.

Criteria employed by the Church Fathers for determining a writing as Scripture were: (1) Apostolicity (2) Orthodoxy (3) Antiquity (4) Use (5) Adaptability (6) Inspiration. ("The Biblical Canon", pages 401-42, Lee Martin McDonald)

As you can see from this list, the writings were accepted if they agreed with doctrines the church had already determined. The decision was thus determined by use, not imposed from the hierarchy

Doug

35

When did the Great Crowd start forming?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i realize that rutherford received a flash of light regarding the identity of the gc in the year 1935, but that does not tell us when the crowd began to form.

what would be the earliest date?

any ideas or quotes from wt literature?

Doug Mason

Do my Studies help?

http://www.jwstudies.com/The_Great_Crowd_before_1935_and_since.pdf

http://www.jwstudies.com/The_Watch_Tower_Society_Reveals_Itself.pdf

http://www.jwstudies.com/WT_magazines_from_2000_to_2015_on_144000_and_the_anointed.pdf

http://www.jwstudies.com/The_Tower_of_sand.pdf

Doug

31

Far fewer references to lesbians

by Doug Mason in

i notice that while a search of the wt library reveals many references to homosexuals, there are few references to lesbians.. does the wts include women when it uses the term homosexual?.

when discussing masturbation, does it mention both sexes?.

i am asking out of pure ignorance, seeking clarification.. my only comment is that religion of every shade has difficulty with the subject of sexual activity, as if it were something that is not part of nature.. doug.

Doug Mason

Thank you everyone for your fantastic comments to my initial post on this thread.

I was very concerned at the way my post might have been construed, but I can tell you that I appreciate the positive way in which this subject has been approached.

Doug